January 17, 2018, 07:07:56 am

Author Topic: cam timing  (Read 26825 times)

TinyTim

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2007, 12:20:36 am »
Further development today re the above anomalies.  Tried unsuccessfully to contact Honda UK.....they are useless.[}:)] Then I remembered a small one man Motorcycle Repair shop about 10 miles away. He's only a small business, but knows his stuff and been around for years. I also remembered someone saying he once worked as a Honda mechanic for a Honda race team way way back...many moons ago.
    So I gave him a ring on the off chance he may be able to direct me to someone who may know. I started to explain my predicament with the front cams being in the wrong place if I followed the instruction manual and set them on the T 2:4 crankshaft position and before I could explain further he said he remembered that the Honda Factory Instructions were initially wrong and admitted to be wrong. He further stated that Honda, when they realised the mistake, published an amendment to the manual. He also says that unfortunately the amendments tended to get lost/misplaced and also the Clymer manual was wrong on some editions because they copied from the incorrect Honda Instructions in the first place !!!!

The bloke seemed to be very "up" on the subject and has asked me to call back tomorrow when hopefully he will have found the amendment to the manual concerning the camshaft positions. He also mumbled something about the front camshafts being redesigned lobe position to shaft wise to allow timing of all 4 camshafts off the one T 1:3  crankshaft position..

I will keep you informed of any news !!

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This time tomorrow it'll be yesterday

SveinT

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2007, 11:42:56 pm »
Hello, read this once more,

It's also some small marks/warts on the sprocket 6 teeths from
the T 1-3 line mark on the VF1000F engine cam sprocket, to help you.

These extra marks must be aligned with the
head edge at T 2-4 front.
At this point the camshaft lobes should point
straight away from each other on front cyl 2 (left)
and straight against each other at front cyl 4 (right)


And I have taken pics for you too !  

1. Rear cyl must be at T 1-3 and cam marks aligned/ID UP (Like EX-R)
2. Then rotate the flywheel counterclockwise to T 2-4   90 deg,
3. Install the cams as described with the marks & 6 teeth
as described, the same way and angle/ position as the rear
cams then - of course !  (Yes, the cams - not the cam lobes)
You have the pictures .
Can't be that difficult heh ?
If you move the rear cams forward 6 teeths, you must install
the front cams 6 teeth forward, it's only because in that position
the cams lobes in front are free from the rockers, that's why.

It's logical if you want to place all the marks in the same position at T 1-3 , isn't it ? Check my pictures.
4. Check all marks by turning the engine around 2 x 360 deg. after tighten the bolts by hand force only.  Got it? [;)]

The pdf manual here for 1000 isn't the first,
because the F-II model is described too.
http://www.honda-v4.com/sabmag/framecodes/vf1000f.gif
http://www.honda-v4.com/sabmag/framecodes/vf1000f2.gif
My engine pics are from an 1984 engine,
the model with 16" front wheel - made in 84 only for
the Euro market, 84 Usa, and 84 AND 85 for Canada.
I have not heard that the cams was changed that way on 1000F's
but on later Usa/Can 700/750 Magna's & SuperMagna.
But if there's a change, it must been done on some few
and the latest models with line boring, viewed here :
http://www.honda-v4.com/sabmag/download/linjeborr.jpg
I'm still learning [:D]
(It's always possible to do an mistake for everyone of us)

Yes, the first books had all mistakes around this.
And it's very frustrating, because books like this must be correct..
[xx(]

Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 05:10:30 pm by SveinT »
Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com

TinyTim

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2007, 06:46:17 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by SveinT

Hello, read this once more,

It's also some small marks/warts on the sprocket 6 teeths from
the T 1-3 line mark on the VF1000F engine cam sprocket, to help you.

These extra marks must be aligned with the
head edge at T 2-4 front.
At this point the camshaft lobes should point
straight away from each other on front cyl 2 (left)
and straight against each other at front cyl 4 (right)


And I have taken pics for you too !  

1. Rear cyl must be at T 1-3 and cam marks UP
2. Then rotate the flywheel counterclockwise to T 2-4   90 deg,
3. Install the cams as described with the marks & 6 teeth
as described, the same way and angle/ position as the rear
cams then - of course !  (Yes, the cams - not the cam lobes)
You have the pictures .
Can't be that difficult heh ?
If you move the rear cams forward 6 teeths, you must install
the front cams 6 teeth forward, it's only because in that position
the cams lobes in front are free from the rockers, that's why.

It's logical if you want to place all the marks in the same position at T 1-3 , isn't it ? Check my pictures.
4. Check all marks by turning the engine around 2 x 360 deg. after tighten the bolts by hand force only.  Got it? [;)]

The pdf manual here for 1000 isn't the first,
because the F-II model is described too.
http://www.honda-v4.com/sabmag/framecodes/vf1000f.gif
http://www.honda-v4.com/sabmag/framecodes/vf1000f2.gif
My engine pics are from an 1984 engine,
the model with 16" front wheel - made in 84 only for
the Euro market, 84 Usa, and 84 AND 85 for Canada.
I have not heard that the cams was changed that way on 1000F's
but on later Usa/Can 700/750 Magna's & SuperMagna.
But if there's a change, it must been done on some few
and the latest models with line boring, viewed here :
http://www.honda-v4.com/sabmag/download/linjeborr.jpg
I'm still learning [:D]
(It's always possible to do an mistake for everyone of us)

Yes, the first books had all mistakes around this.
And it's very frustrating, because books like this must be correct..
[xx(]

Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com



Thanks Svein..I need to have a good read of this to digest it....I need to have a few days away from this problem at the moment as I am getting very frustrated and need to calm down. I will let you know how I get on . By the way...you said you have posted pics....I can't see any, just two pics of a table of frame numbers??

Thanks again .

Tim

This time tomorrow it'll be yesterday
This time tomorrow it'll be yesterday

SveinT

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2007, 01:01:18 pm »
Hello, I have posted a lot of pics earlier in this tread,
where you can see how the cams & lobes are placed on
the VF1000F engine here at T 1-3 and T 2-4.

Have a nice weekend. [8D]



Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com
Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com

TinyTim

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2007, 03:58:18 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by SveinT

Hello, I have posted a lot of pics earlier in this tread,
where you can see how the cams & lobes are placed on
the VF1000F engine here at T 1-3 and T 2-4.

Have a nice weekend. [8D]



Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com



Thanks Svein...ys I've got the pics from your other post...I'll go back over them with the extra imformation about the "6 teeth" on the camshaft sprocket..I have looked at the sprockets and yes I see the little marks that are 6 teeth away from the "horizontal" marks.....I just find it hard to believe that this is the first mention I have ever heard of this from you.

What on earth were Honda playing at !!!

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This time tomorrow it'll be yesterday

bif

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2007, 08:10:58 pm »
Teambif have an 85 genuine manual with amendments.I will drop it off to PAJ who can scan the offending pages.
                Sorry I havent posted earlier just pulled ma head out of my ass
                             regards BIF

TinyTim

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2007, 03:09:45 am »
quote:
Originally posted by bif

Teambif have an 85 genuine manual with amendments.I will drop it off to PAJ who can scan the offending pages.
                Sorry I havent posted earlier just pulled ma head out of my ass
                             regards BIF



Glad ya head's out of your ass bif[;)][;)]....is this problem "common knowledge" then?.....If Svein hadn't pointed this out to me I think I'd have stuck my head up MY ass and said fook it !![:o)].
Look sharp please as it's stopped me in my tracks.... and c'mon PAJ...pull ya finger out !!![:D][:D]. I'll be really interested in Hondas explanation for their fook up...if there is one....

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bif

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2007, 07:45:49 pm »
Yes its common knowledge ma heads bin up ma ass for a while now.The cam thing is not new tho.Just remember that you are dealing with ONE engine.If you had an inline four all your settings would be done at TDC on number one the Vee 4 is no different.
          just before we get an avalanche of posts telling otherwise PAJ is riding a damn fine FE that was rebuilt by us,all cams fitted on TDC 1:3.Its been to France and back via Belgium and Holland and still runs like a sweetie.
           regards BIF

bif

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2007, 08:03:12 pm »
PAJ has the manual and is scanning the two revised pages
                                   BIF

PAJ

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2007, 09:10:49 pm »
Here are the scans of the January 1986 revised pages 9-16 and 9-17 of the Honda Service Manual for the VF1000R

Page 9-16

Page 9-17

Note the changes are highlighted "NEW" on the left hand side of the page.

[:)]

TinyTim

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2007, 09:42:29 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by PAJ

Here are the scans of the January 1986 revised pages 9-16 and 9-17 of the Honda Service Manual for the VF1000R

Page 9-16

Page 9-17

Note the changes are highlighted "NEW" on the left hand side of the page.

[:)]




Brilliant bif and PAJ...thanks ...just wanted confirmation of all the camshafts fitted on the T1:3..Thanks also to Svein.

Any chance/ is it possible you can make this subject a "Sticky"....for future reference to anybody who just intends to follow the manuals....and fooks up? It certainly wasn't common knowledge to me and it's only vf1000.com that's enlightened me here. Again thanks.[:)]

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SveinT

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2007, 02:11:57 pm »
BIF and PAJ, these scans comfirms what I wrote
earlier in this theme.
VF1000R 1986 is different here than the VF1000F -84.
The engine, like som other 86 models like USA Magna or newer,
is line bored and with changed cams.
( Ref: Picture in your scan of VF1000R -86 BIF / PAJ )
I have not personally worked with the latest models
with line boring, just the shaft and
chain driven engines without line boring 82-85.
I do have the manuals of the different versions,
but not pictures who compares cams from early and late
models. I will get some pics one day..
I have not seen an engine number yet written from you TinyTim,
but good luck and take care. [:)]


Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 10:34:53 am by SveinT »
Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com

TinyTim

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2007, 01:29:45 am »
quote:
Originally posted by SveinT

BIF and PAJ, these scans comfirms what I wrote
earlier in this theme.
VF1000R 1986 is different here than the VF1000F -84.
The engine, like som other 86 models like USA Magna or newer,
is line bored and with changed cams.
( Ref: Picture in your scan of VF1000R -86 BIF / PAJ )
I have not personally worked with the latest models
with line boring, just the shaft and
chain driven engines without line boring 82-85.
I do have the manuals of the different versions,
but not pictures who compares cams from early and late
models. I will get some pics one day..
I have not seen an engine number yet written from you TinyTim,
but good luck and take care. [:)]


Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com



I'm sorry....missed that request ..I'll get it posted in a day or two.

Thanks again Svein..[:D][:)]

This time tomorrow it'll be yesterday
This time tomorrow it'll be yesterday

SveinT

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2007, 09:50:24 am »
The best solution must be to make a list over the changes by engine
numbers and part numbers for these parts from the fiche,
some front cams must be installed at T 2-4, like the 84 1000Fe engine.
Disassembled both heads from a VF1000Fe -84 engine yesterday eng.no
SC15E-2004970
Front cams disassembled at T 2-4, Rear at T 1-3, like the other oldest V4 engines.

The most easy way in the beginning must be this -
Be sure that you have the correct workshop manual on your table,  
And the original engine in the frame..
Then do some notes and take som photos before you
strip down the parts in the engine.
Some Honda V4 models got line boring in 1985, some in 1986.
I knew that F-II models was changed, but was not sure
about all of them. Looks like all 1000 Ff & F2f models was changed, yes.

Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 11:30:34 am by SveinT »
Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com

SveinT

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Re: cam timing
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2007, 04:08:04 pm »
Here's a pic of the front cylinders of the VF1000Fe 1984 engine here,
taken here yesterday,where the flywheel is rotated 90 deg
counterclockwise from T 1-3 to T 2-4.
When all the valve adjustment nuts are loosened and the screws are turned backwards,
all the rocker arms will be free from the cam lobes.
I have seen your workshop pictures of your bike earlier on the forum galleri here,
looks like the first model ?

http://www.honda-v4.com/sabmag/download/frontcylvf1000fe.jpg

(It's just one more explaination pictures that can be used
together with my other pictures links earlier in this thread )


Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 04:13:17 pm by SveinT »
Regards Svein T., Skien, Norway.
V45 Sabre -83, V65 Sabre -84
www.honda-v4.com